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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 30 post(s) |
Dave Stark
3390
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Posted - 2013.08.31 07:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.
so you're telling me, marauders will have sufficient active tank to tank a whole room of sansha with no remote reps for up to 60 seconds? because before you even consider pressing the bastion module in an incursion, the answer to that question has to be "yes" or it'll never be pressed, ever. especially when flying a ship worth as much as an incursion ship is usually worth.
that sounds balanced for other areas of the game.
having said that, unless you're planning on nerfing pirate hulls in to the ground nobody will fly a marauder in incursions anyway since the pirate hulls have superior damage bonuses from what i remember. |
Dave Stark
3505
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Posted - 2013.09.02 18:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.
won't waste my time training for a marauder then. |
Dave Stark
3506
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Posted - 2013.09.02 18:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shadalana wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km...
how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k. |
Dave Stark
3506
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Posted - 2013.09.02 18:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.
won't waste my time training for a marauder then. Because no one ever dropped a damage mod for more tracking in Incursions? Never mind the good base resists, four utility mids and solid slot layout. The speed is something of an issue but if you can cap-chain with another Marauder you can probably perma-run anything you like up to and including a MWD as well as save the entire fleet if a Logi gets jammed at the wrong time. Maybe you do a little less DPS but that's a fine tradeoff if you tank a little better and don't have to worry about neuts ever.
you mean the same utility slots that a vindiator has more of, and gets bonuses to?
if a logi gets jammed then i suggest people start learning how to shoot tagged targets. doing less dps isn't fine, it just slows down every site and makes every one else in the group earn less isk. at best it's selfish and at worst it's stupid. |
Dave Stark
3510
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Posted - 2013.09.02 18:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
this is probably the only bonus that's worth the drawbacks. otherwise the module is either a death sentence, or the job it's doing will simply be done better by other ships.
unless you're doing l4 missions, which the marauders are already very good at. |
Dave Stark
3514
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Posted - 2013.09.02 19:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps? |
Dave Stark
3516
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Posted - 2013.09.02 19:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shadalana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps? defender...common weapon of npcs...
i see, i don't do missions. just incursions where i've never seen an npc use defender missiles, then again i've never seen one get shot with missiles. |
Dave Stark
3520
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Posted - 2013.09.02 20:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Shadalana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Shadalana wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km... how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k. a kronos does 20% mehr dps mit faction ammo, has 25% more range with faction and does this damag instant...and of course no defender... so i guess: golem at 37km: 750 dps kronos: ~700 dps instant...and the ability to shoot at 45km, much more worth... But does your Kronos have Capless DPS and Tank? Wait.... let me check..... lets see..... oh.... NO YOU CANT!!! Therefore Golem is > Kronos
and anything not firing defender missiles is taking 1k dps from the golem, unlike the kronos' limp wristed damage due to not being in optimal range. |
Dave Stark
3553
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Posted - 2013.09.04 19:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.
How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.
lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.
well until we know what is happening to pirate battleships we have no choice but to compare them to the current state pirate ships because that's the alternative to a marauder.
and currently there's 0 compelling reasons to pick a marauder over a pirate battleship for my purposes which is mostly incursions.
a t2 resist profile isn't worth sacrificing the damage and other bonuses of pirate battleships, it really isn't. |
Dave Stark
3554
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Posted - 2013.09.04 21:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too. 82.5% webs are still pretty significant.
i'll admit i didn't bother doing the maths but with the webs being that close why didn't ccp just give them a real web bonus so they are actually able to compete with pirate battleships?
i mean, let's look at the kronos and a vindicator in an incursion setting (i love incursions) we're trading the superior dps and now superior webbing ability of the vindicator for t2 resits... which the vindicator makes up for by having 1 more mid slot for an extra invuln or EM amp, or whatever it needs.
so really, the kronos is just a crap vindicator that generally just takes longer to train for since you won't really miss gal BS V on your vindi if you have more important things to train.
*shrug*
the only way these marauder changes actually going to be worth **** is if pirate battleships get unapolagetically bludgeoned with the nerf bat. that remains to be seen. |
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Dave Stark
3557
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Posted - 2013.09.05 17:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.
is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"? |
Dave Stark
3558
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Posted - 2013.09.05 17:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....
well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot... where's the incentive to use a marauder? |
Dave Stark
3560
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Posted - 2013.09.05 18:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Dave Stark wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Kasuko Merin wrote:Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators.... well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder? Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind. I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts.
i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about.
the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs. t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus. bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions. nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them. sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour.
I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships. |
Dave Stark
3560
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Posted - 2013.09.05 18:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?
sure. it'd also be nice if they took a moment to produce a coherent set of options, though. the marauder suggestions, and iterations so far have been very incoherent. |
Dave Stark
3565
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Posted - 2013.09.05 19:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.
standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp.
i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on.
if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get...
edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII
new stats are: 75 em 75 therm 90 kin 69 exp
we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference.
a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are: 74 em 72 therm 72 kin 77 exp |
Dave Stark
3565
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Posted - 2013.09.05 19:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists. standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp. i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on. if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get... edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII new stats are: 75 em 75 therm 90 kin 69 exp we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference. a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are: 74 em 72 therm 72 kin 77 exp Test is on HACs... Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU. Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU. Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU. Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU (These include Links).
ishtar gets the same resist profile with the same modules as the astarte does.
also, the resist profiles i stated are without links because for incursions you want 70% omni, before links usually. |
Dave Stark
3565
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Posted - 2013.09.05 19:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I believe he's running shield, as such EM hardner + DCU falls short (Kronos)
yep, if you want a reason why armour tanks for incursions are bad. ask dark nefarious (or is it darth nefarious? like i care...) he's well versed in the excuses reasons why |
Dave Stark
3568
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Posted - 2013.09.06 21:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kelarc Keld wrote:Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it.
or it just needs to have less drawbacks. |
Dave Stark
3571
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Posted - 2013.09.07 00:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Kelarc Keld wrote:Bastion absolutely needs a huge damage buff to be wort it. or it just needs to have less drawbacks. The drawbacks were worth the advantages when the 30% resists were part of the package in my opinion.
no it was still a "click here for a 1bn isk+ lossmail" button. |
Dave Stark
3572
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Posted - 2013.09.07 11:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Spod wrote:The use for webs in pve is going to be in nullsec anoms, incursions and whs. I still don't like the bonus, it has nothing to do with marauders other than to make them solo station games ships. Marauders should be fleet ships and specialized, not solo active tank pvp mobiles.
Just ditch the webs, they are arbitrary design. Less is more.
considering vindicators are used in fleets, often for their web bonus, your argument doesn't make much sense. |
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Dave Stark
3575
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Posted - 2013.09.07 17:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Golem FIX
250% torp max velocity, -250% flight time. 100% cruise max velocity, -100% flight time.
Suddenly this ship got fixed and is now useful for incursions and a bit more in pvp.
golem does not need any explo rad/vel buff, it is good as is...
i'm not convinced you understand how percentages work....
torps with negative flight time, and cruise missiles with 0 flight time? |
Dave Stark
3605
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Posted - 2013.09.08 16:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Well folks, he's won an all-expenses-paid trip... back to the drawing board.
that's probably the best place to continue the marauder rebalance from.
it's clear that with the current proposal CCP have no idea what they want marauders to do. |
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